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  • #16
    Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
    Been reading a bit online about Noel Browne's proposed "Mother and Child Scheme" but all I can glean from what I've read so far was that the proposed legislation was designed to improve medical care for children and thus reduce child mortality, and that it was opposed by the Church which led to Browne's resignation. What exactly were the Church objecting to and on what grounds?
    That was McQuaid again KM....disgusting....and Browne was ostracised and lost his job.

    McQuaid regarded all hospitals as 'his' and any interference would be met with the might of the church. Particularly when it meant in McQuaid's twisted view that the proposed Mother and Child Health Service was
    in direct opposition to the rights of the family and of the individual and are liable to great abuse. The character of the services is such that no assurance that they would be used in moderation could justify their enactment. If adopted in law they would constitute a ready-made instrument for future totalitarian aggression
    The right to provide for the health of children belongs to the parents, not the state. The state has the right ti intervene only in a subsidiary capacity, to supplement, not to supplant. It may help indigent or neglected parents: it may not deprive 90% of their rights for 10% necessitous or neglected parents. It is not sound social policy to impose state medical services on the whole community on the pretext of relieving the necessitous 10% from the so -called indignity of the means test.
    The right to provide for the physical education of children belongs to the family and not the state. Experience has shown that physical or health education is closely interwoven with important moral questions on which the Catholic Church has definite teaching.
    McQuaid's twisted mind saw education in regard to motherhood as including sexual relations, chastity and marriage. He believed the state had no competence to give instruction in such matters.
    We regard with the greatest apprehension the proposal to give local medical officers the right to tell Catholic girls and women how they should behave in regard to this sphere of conduct at once so delicate and sacred.
    Gynaecological care my be, and in some countries is, interpreted to include provision for birth limitations and abortion. We have no guarantee that state officials will respect Catholic principles in regard to these matters. Doctors trained in instruction in which they have no confidence may be appointed as medical officers under the proposed service, and may give gynaecological care not in accordance with Catholic principles.
    The maniac was afraid that ppl would become too savvy for their own good, and as they were under the heal of the Catholic Church teachings anyway, what was the point in rocking the boat.

    McQuaid asked "why is it necessary to go to so much trouble and expense simply to provide a free health service for the 10% necessitous poor"
    Dr Brown later said it was in fact 30% of the poor in need at the time, and thought it a strange attitude from a powerful prelate of a Christian Church towards the life and death of the necessitous poor.

    McQuaid led the Bishops in a crusade against Dr Brown and his proposals for a state medical welfare service....and in a letter sent to Costello to be read to the cabinet......whereby 'the bishops' condemned the scheme as wrong and defective......The whole cabinet except Dr Browne backed down and the scheme was ditched.....It not only retarded medical welfare for decades afterwards but also had a massive influence on north south relations for over fifty years and beyond.

    The reporter Sean O'Faolain, who pissed McQuaid off the most.....said: The Browne case showed that the Republic had two parliaments. "A parliament at the seat of the church in Maynooth .....and one in Leinster House.... The Dail proposes....M
    Maynooth disposes".

    What a joke.....
    Last edited by DAMNTHEWEATHER; 25-10-2017, 04:36 PM.
    We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DAMNTHEWEATHER View Post
      That was McQuaid again KM....disgusting....and Browne was ostracised and lost his job.

      McQuaid regarded all hospitals as 'his' and any interference would be met with the might of the church. Particularly when it meant in McQuaid's twisted view that the proposed Mother and Child Health Service w





      McQuaid's twisted mind saw education in regard to motherhood as including sexual relations, chastity and marriage. He believed the state had no competence to give instruction in such matters.



      The maniac was afraid that ppl would become too savvy for their own good, and as they were under the heal of the Catholic Church teachings anyway, what was the point in rocking the boat.

      McQuaid asked "why is it necessary to go to so much trouble and expense simply to provide a free health service for the 10% necessitous poor"
      Dr Brown later said it was in fact 30% of the poor in need at the time, and thought it a strange attitude from a powerful prelate of a Christian Church towards the life and death of the necessitous poor.

      McQuaid led the Bishops in a crusade against Dr Brown and his proposals for a state medical welfare service....and in a letter sent to Costello to be read to the cabinet......whereby 'the bishops' condemned the scheme as wrong and defective......The whole cabinet except Dr Browne backed down and the scheme was ditched.....It not only retarded medical welfare for decades afterwards but also had a massive influence on north south relations for over fifty years and beyond.

      The reporter Sean O'Faolain, who pissed McQuaid off the most.....said: The Browne case showed that the Republic had two parliaments. "A parliament at the seat of the church in Maynooth .....and one in Leinster House.... The Dail proposes....M
      Maynooth disposes".

      What a joke.....
      Only the well-heeled laughed at that joke...

      The Catholic Church in Ireland acted in a disgusting and childish manner...

      No pun intented
      Here Rex!!!...Here Rex!!!.....Wuff!!!....... Wuff!!!

      Comment


      • #18
        thanks dtw.......so their arguments - about children's health etc. being the responsibility of the family not the state - really were that flimsy, and just a cover for their real concerns - that, as you say, people might get too "savvy" and that it would open the door to such things as contraception and abortion. It seems incredible that the Church could yield such power, but they were very different times, I guess.
        Last edited by KatieMorag; 25-10-2017, 05:19 PM.

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        • #19
          The Catholic Church acted like they did because they had the people to back them up.....
          Here Rex!!!...Here Rex!!!.....Wuff!!!....... Wuff!!!

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          • #20
            [QUOTE]
            Originally posted by quinner View Post
            Only the well-heeled laughed at that joke...
            Of course....but the church did some good while they were doing really bad......and the poor got both ends of it.

            The Catholic Church in Ireland acted in a disgusting and childish manner...
            Disgusting manner in many ways but there was nothing 'childish' about the manner in which it acted after McQuaid became archbishop of Dublin.....more devious and sinister I would say.

            No pun intended
            Of course.
            We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
              thanks dtw.......so their arguments - about children's health etc. being the responsibility of the family not the state - really were that flimsy, and just a cover for their real concerns - that, as you say, people might get too "savvy" and that it would open the door to such things as contraception and abortion. It seems incredible that the Church could yield such power, but they were very different times, I guess.
              State involvement smacked of socialism.
              Everything is self-evident.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by cogito View Post
                State involvement smacked of socialism.
                And socialism was only one step from godless communism.
                Everything is self-evident.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by cogito View Post
                  And socialism was only one step from godless communism.
                  oh, thanks.......i hadn't really thought of that.
                  think i've said this before, forgive me if so, but when i asked my mum what a communist was she said it was someone who didn't believe in God! Shows how influenced people were by what the Church said......

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                  • #24
                    [QUOTE=DAMNTHEWEATHER;457441]
                    Of course....but the church did some good while they were doing really bad......and the poor got both ends of it.

                    Disgusting manner in many ways but there was nothing 'childish' about the manner in which it acted after McQuaid became archbishop of Dublin.....more devious and sinister I would say.

                    Of course.

                    Feeing they had the right to punish unmarried mothers for the sins those mothers were alleged to have committed ...

                    Feeling they had the right to punish the babies those mothers had by separating them from their mothers for life.......is criminal beyond belief

                    The State allowed that to happen........

                    The contracts the mothers signed were signed under duress and therefore illegal.........The State was well aware of that.....
                    Here Rex!!!...Here Rex!!!.....Wuff!!!....... Wuff!!!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
                      thanks dtw.......so their arguments - about children's health etc. being the responsibility of the family not the state - really were that flimsy, and just a cover for their real concerns - that, as you say, people might get too "savvy" and that it would open the door to such things as contraception and abortion. It seems incredible that the Church could yield such power, but they were very different times, I guess.
                      That's right....There can be no exaggeration about the power of the church after McQuaid became Archbishop of Dublin, in fact there was never a more devious man in charge either before or after him.

                      With reference to Dr Browne, McQuaid's detailed notes confirm that from fairly on he effectively stalked Browne while he was on the run,
                      until he was fully satisfied that he was isolated by the cabinet and was helpless in the face of the vested interests of the medical profession with whose leaders McQuaid dealt with behind the scenes.
                      We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
                        thanks dtw.......so their arguments - about children's health etc. being the responsibility of the family not the state - really were that flimsy, and just a cover for their real concerns - that, as you say, people might get too "savvy" and that it would open the door to such things as contraception and abortion. It seems incredible that the Church could yield such power, but they were very different times, I guess.
                        Browne, taking up proposals first mapped out by the previous Fianna Fail government, aimed to tackle unacceptable levels of child mortality by bringing in free ante-and post- natal care for mothers and extending free health treatment for all children under 16 without a means test. But he found himself up against a powerful opposition that spanned GPs concerned their incomes might be threatened, and colleagues in government who in turn were probably under pressure from lay Catholic elements.

                        He had failed to prepare the ground with the Cabinet, who were unaware of the details of the scheme when it was launched in March 1951. He had also made the error of thinking that, after meeting with senior Catholic clergy in October 1950, their concerns had all been assuaged. Far from declaring war on the Church, however, he was intent on accommodating it and thought he was operating within the parameters of what it would accept.

                        Some believe that doctors were behind the drawing of bishops into the row, while John Charles McQuaid, the powerful Archbishop of Dublin, was himself a doctor's son with strong views about the status of the profession. When their views were invited the bishops avoided stating whether the plan was at odds with Catholic morality but denounced it as at variance with the Church's social teaching.

                        At the root of their opposition was the perception that Browne's scheme would open the way to liberal family planning and contraception. Taoiseach John A. Costello and McBride had in the meantime come to dislike their abrasive health minister and opposition leaders suspected they were only too glad to hasten his exit, forcing him to resign on 11 April 1951. He was followed out in sympathy by two fellow MPs.

                        The actual demise of the weakened coalition in the general election of May 1951 was not decided by the Mother and Child Scheme, however, but by the desertion of rural Independents over its failure to raise the price of milk.

                        But McBride's mishandling of the health affair effectively ended his own political ambitions and, some argue, closed off the opening to the left in Irish politics for more than 20 years.

                        He never stood a chance against McQuaid....,. and Dev stayed quiet.

                        Noel Browne's place in Irish history is inextricably bound up with one infamous political convulsion, his bitterly opposed post-war plan for a state-run health service, the Mother and Child Scheme. Its lingering wound has left demarcation lines in Ireland's domestic politics for almost five decades.
                        We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by cogito View Post
                          And socialism was only one step from godless communism.
                          Christianity is then one step from Godless Communism......
                          Here Rex!!!...Here Rex!!!.....Wuff!!!....... Wuff!!!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by quinner View Post
                            Christianity is then one step from Godless Communism......
                            Browne was more of a christian than those who persecuted him... and was perceived by many Irish catholics to be so at the time. McQuaid got his victory but it was not a popular one and some people began to wake up to what was happening in the country. Pity it took another decade or so for that opposition to make itself felt...
                            Everything is self-evident.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by cogito View Post
                              Browne was more of a christian than those who persecuted him... and was perceived by many Irish catholics to be so at the time. McQuaid got his victory but it was not a popular one and some people began to wake up to what was happening in the country. Pity it took another decade or so for that opposition to make itself felt...
                              Everybody wakes up sometime.......That is not an excuse to hide the past under their pillows.....
                              Here Rex!!!...Here Rex!!!.....Wuff!!!....... Wuff!!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                When you stop and think about it,it wasn't until the advent of TV in Ireland that people began to see a whole other world out there that before was pretty well hidden from them.It opened up a whole new view of things .That coupled with a better educated population, brought with it the demise of the power of the RC church. There should be no religious input be tolerated in state affairs.

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