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  • The Squad...

    Often cited as one of the major 'innacuracies' on Neil Jordan's movie... not a huge departure from the truth in my opinion. Dublin, January 1920...

    The movie account...





    Reality...

    '...In Dublin, the intelligence war continued. Police authorities sent veteran RIC
    Detective W.C. Forbes Redmond from Belfast at the beginning of the year, and appointed
    him Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the DMP in charge of G-Division. He brought a
    squad of plain-clothes detectives with him from Belfast, and Neligan said his objective
    was to "smash up Collins‘s activities". However, the problem with bringing in outside
    policemen was that they did not know Dublin. Redmond appointed James MacNamara
    as his secretary and guide. This compounded his problems, as MacNamara was passing
    information to Collins. When the intelligence director learned that Redmond was living
    in the Standard Hotel in Harcourt Street, he got Tom Cullen a room there to study his
    movements. On the morning of January 21, members of the Squad tracked the GDivision
    chief as he walked to Dublin Castle and shot him dead...'

    Tactics, Politics and Propaganda in The Irish War Of Independence
    Everything is self-evident.

  • #2
    Originally posted by cogito View Post
    Often cited as one of the major 'innacuracies' on Neil Jordan's movie... not a huge departure from the truth in my opinion. Dublin, January 1920...

    The movie account...





    Reality...

    '...In Dublin, the intelligence war continued. Police authorities sent veteran RIC
    Detective W.C. Forbes Redmond from Belfast at the beginning of the year, and appointed
    him Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the DMP in charge of G-Division. He brought a
    squad of plain-clothes detectives with him from Belfast, and Neligan said his objective
    was to "smash up Collins‘s activities". However, the problem with bringing in outside
    policemen was that they did not know Dublin. Redmond appointed James MacNamara
    as his secretary and guide. This compounded his problems, as MacNamara was passing
    information to Collins. When the intelligence director learned that Redmond was living
    in the Standard Hotel in Harcourt Street, he got Tom Cullen a room there to study his
    movements. On the morning of January 21, members of the Squad tracked the GDivision
    chief as he walked to Dublin Castle and shot him dead...'

    Tactics, Politics and Propaganda in The Irish War Of Independence
    http://digitalarchive.gsu.edu/cgi/vi...0propaganda%22
    Except in the movie it was the Hollywood spectacular of a car bomb which was the main complaint at the time.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
      Except in the movie it was the Hollywood spectacular of a car bomb which was the main complaint at the time.
      Suppose so... the Ned Broy figure (played by Stephen Rea in the clip) was a mishmash of Broy, David Nelligan and Dick McKee - and it was Brunswick St. DMP (Pearse Street Garda Station) - not Dublin Castle - that Collins was smuggled into to view the G Division files... but I can sympathise with Jordan's effort to present all that in a coherent screenplay for an international audience...
      Everything is self-evident.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
        Except in the movie it was the Hollywood spectacular of a car bomb which was the main complaint at the time.
        I watched that movie in our local cinema here in Perth. I was amazed at the inaccuracies - I think the opening scene had a street directly opposite the GPO. When the car bomb went off I let out a loud guffaw which resulted in a sharp dig in the ribs from the missus and some funny looks from the other viewers.
        Such is life - Ned Kelly

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by boxman View Post
          I watched that movie in our local cinema here in Perth. I was amazed at the inaccuracies - I think the opening scene had a street directly opposite the GPO. When the car bomb went off I let out a loud guffaw which resulted in a sharp dig in the ribs from the missus and some funny looks from the other viewers.
          I think that was an 'in' joke for us free staters tied in with the Northern prod bringing some 'Belfast efficiency' to the anarchy... set against the background of the Provo bombing campaign which had finished only a few years prior to the film's release...

          Bottom line was that Redmond was dead within three weeks of taking up his appointment... and Jordan got that right.
          Everything is self-evident.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by cogito View Post
            I think that was an 'in' joke for us free staters tied in with the Northern prod bringing some 'Belfast efficiency' to the anarchy... set against the background of the Provo bombing campaign which had finished only a few years prior to the film's release...

            Bottom line was that Redmond was dead within three weeks of taking up his appointment... and Jordan got that right.
            True but if you were watching a movie on Custer Last Stand and the Indians killed him with an M16 would you be happy? It was like one of those crazy Hollywood Producer ideas that the movie needs more explosions to catch a certain demographic audience do Jordan left out the dancing girls!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by cogito View Post
              I think that was an 'in' joke for us free staters tied in with the Northern prod bringing some 'Belfast efficiency' to the anarchy... set against the background of the Provo bombing campaign which had finished only a few years prior to the film's release...

              Bottom line was that Redmond was dead within three weeks of taking up his appointment... and Jordan got that right.
              What I've always found astounding was the audacity of Collins' intelligence unit. When Redmond appeared on the scene, Collins had a photo of him within days by Frank Thornton actually getting the photo from a file in Chichester St Barracks in Belfast. The amount of close calls that Collins had in this period is amazing, he must have been a very, very cool customer. I've always thought that a movie just on the exploits of these men would have been much more intriguing. I did see a doco on TV a while back that looked at this aspect of the War of Independence.
              Such is life - Ned Kelly

              Comment


              • #8
                there has never been a movie with an accurate account of custers last stand......

                a civil war veteran said of the movie, gone with the wind.....if we had that many men, we would have won......
                Here Rex!!!...Here Rex!!!.....Wuff!!!....... Wuff!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Squad...

                  Who was actually in "The Squad"? Reading V.Browne profile of Sean Lemass from 1969 he stated that Lemass was "reputed" to be a member? Was he? Do we actually have a list of the 12 members of the Squad and who conducted what killing?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
                    Who was actually in "The Squad"? Reading V.Browne profile of Sean Lemass from 1969 he stated that Lemass was "reputed" to be a member? Was he? Do we actually have a list of the 12 members of the Squad and who conducted what killing?
                    The Squad grew beyond 12 members but I don't think Lemass was an actual member though he might have been part of the Dublin ASU which was closely affiliated to the Squad - also a large body of men from the Dublin Brigade were seconded to the Squad / ASU for the Bloody Sunday killings... Anne Dolans' article on the link at post #12 gives an account of who did the shooting that morning...
                    Everything is self-evident.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by cogito View Post
                      The Squad grew beyond 12 members but I don't think Lemass was an actual member though he might have been part of the Dublin ASU which was closely affiliated to the Squad - also a large body of men from the Dublin Brigade were seconded to the Squad / ASU for the Bloody Sunday killings... Anne Dolans' article on the link at post #12 gives an account of who did the shooting that morning...
                      Interesting article, I did read something before about WW2 and that only truly 1% of humans have the necessary mindset to kill without guilt.

                      Two mentions of Lemass, I presume the below is Sean not his brother Noel.
                      MacDonald went on: We knocked at the front door a maid came along have a letter from the Castle will you deliver this note to Captain Bagelly a one legged man. The maid pointing and in we went in. We tapped at the door, opened it and walked in. There were 3 of us. Bagelly was in bed. Lemass, Jimmy and I. I was kind of scared. ‘Captain Bagelly ?’ ‘That’s my name.’ ‘ I suppose you know what we came for. We came for you.’ He was the Judge Advocate General. ‘ I suppose you’ve come for my guns’ he said. One of us, Jimmy Brennan hid it under the bed and he reached behind for it … Slugs and a little more was our reply. ‘Get up.’ He was in pyjamas. Lemass and Jimmy and I fired 2 in the head from the 3 guns. I heard maids screaming afterwards but I was told she was alright. On the ground floor was Jack Foley. A fellow came out with a towel in pyjamas for a bath and Jack stuck him up and he was balls naked. Thinking he was a lodger but he was another British army officer and how we didn’t know about him, we hadn’t any orders about him.
                      69
                      John Horgan suggested that Bloody Sunday was the one day that many old
                      IRA men ‘fell silently defensive about’; that Sea´n Lemass cut short an unwanted inquiry about his actions with the ‘curt observation that ‘‘ firing squads don’t have reunions’’’.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cogito View Post
                        The Squad grew beyond 12 members but I don't think Lemass was an actual member though he might have been part of the Dublin ASU which was closely affiliated to the Squad - also a large body of men from the Dublin Brigade were seconded to the Squad / ASU for the Bloody Sunday killings... Anne Dolans' article on the link at post #12 gives an account of who did the shooting that morning...
                        Who was the bowsie who murdered the 2 jewish guys in dublin after 1922? I understood he was a member of this squad?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tolka1 View Post
                          Who was the bowsie who murdered the 2 jewish guys in dublin after 1922? I understood he was a member of this squad?
                          The Indo names a Commandant James Patrick Conroy and Fred Laffan.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Napper Tandy View Post
                            Who was actually in "The Squad"? Reading V.Browne profile of Sean Lemass from 1969 he stated that Lemass was "reputed" to be a member? Was he? Do we actually have a list of the 12 members of the Squad and who conducted what killing?
                            Mick Mc Donnell was the first squad commander. The first meeting to put a 'Squad' together took place 19 Sep 1919 with Collins and DickMcKee. McKee chose the men for interview from his Dublin unit.

                            Seven men were at the meeting. but only four were chosen that night.

                            Paddy Daley, Joe Leonard (A relation of one of our members here I believe).
                            Sean Doyle and Ben Barratt.

                            Later they were joined by; Jim Slattery, Bill Stapleton, Pat McCrae, Jimmy Conroy.

                            Vinney Byrne effectively joined at Mick Mc Donnell's house 29 Nov '19.

                            Later still....Tom Keogh (half brother of Mick McDonnell) joined along with Mick O'Reilly.

                            Those names made up what became "The Twelve Apostles"

                            The 'Squad' squad grew in numbers with time to thirty or possibly more, with names such as Charlie Dalton, Sean Lemass and even a mention of Stephen Behan.........
                            We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Pic of some Squad Members Reunion. Seated L-R =
                              Vinnie Byrne Piaras Beaslai Mick McDonnell Frank Thornton Jim Slattery.

                              Standing; L - R;
                              Frank Bolster Ben Byrne Frank Saurin Joe Gilfoyle Pat McCrae
                              Barney McMahon Charlie Dalton Joe Leonard Sean O Tuama Jimmy Shields
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by DAMNTHEWEATHER; 29-12-2013, 05:40 PM.
                              We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

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