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Ireland: From 1916 to the War of Independence

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  • Originally posted by jembo View Post
    Good thread, Katie
    Thank you Jembo, it's hard work but I'm really enjoying it and learning so much as I go along.

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    • The aim of the Convention was to work out a system of government for the whole of Ireland that would be acceptable to all of the main groups concerned - Nationalists, Ulster Unionists and Southern Unionists. The only stipulation for what form this government should take was that it must be within the British Empire. Had the delegates approached the Convention with open minds it might have had a chance of success, but the various factions were so entrenched in their views that it was doomed to failure from the start. Another important factor was that Sinn Fein, which was fast becoming the party of choice for the majority of nationalists, was not involved.
      The Convention can be divided into several phases. The first phase began with a three-day session dealing with matters of procedure. After a short adjournment the delegates reconvened on 17th August. Over the next six weeks, during what was known as the "Presentation Phase", there were 18 sittings, in Dublin, Belfast and Cork. It was hoped that during these early meetings the focus would be on finding common ground between the various factions and breaking down barriers. However it wasn't long before the delegates became divided over several issues. Any suggestion of Ulster having any control over its own affairs was blocked by the bishops, amid fears of such an administration being dominated by Protestants. There was also disagreement over fiscal matters and the degree to which an Irish administration should be autonomous in the area of customs and excise duties.
      At the end of this first phase, a Committee was set up consisting of prominent representatives from each of the groups. The Ulster Unionist contingent consisted of H.T.Barrie MP, lord Londonderry, H. McD Pollock, Sir Alexander McDowell and John Irvin, Moderator of the General Assembly. The Nationalists were represented by the MPs John Redmond, JJ Clancy, Joseph Devlin, Stephen Gwynne and two bishops, Revs. Patrick O'Donnell of Raphoe and Denis Kelly of Ross. The Southern Unionists on the committee were Lord Midleton, Lord MacDonnell, John Powell, and Rev. John H. Bernard, Protestant Archbishop of Dublin. There were also three independent nationalists, William Martin Murphy of the Irish Independent, Edward MacLysaght, and George W. Russell, and representing the Labour movement were James McCarron and Robert Waugh.

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      • Irish Convention:Phase 2

        The Grand Committee convened on 11th October. A smaller "Committee of Nine" were then tasked with negotiating all the major issues and coming up with a plan for a form of government. This Committee was comprised of Redmond, Devlin and Bishop O'Donnell (Nationalists), Barrie, Londonderry and McDowell (Ulster Unionists), Middleton (Southern Unionist) and two independent nationalists, Murphy and Russell.
        During the first phase of the Convention, Bishop O'Donnell had come up with a plan to address the concerns of the Ulster Unionists. His idea was that the Ulster Unionists and Southern Unionists would each have an additional 12 nominated members in the proposed Irish Parliament. This proposal was now discussed at length, along with other issues, most importantly that of fiscal autonomy. The talks appear to have gone well initially, with the Committee members agreeing on many points. However there was still disagreement over how Ulster's interests might be protected in an Irish Parliament. In early November, the Ulster delegates met with other Unionists to discuss the issue. On 17th November they told the Committee that they had rejected O'Donnell's idea of extra representatives in an Irish parliament, but would be putting forward their own suggestions in due course. However, before they had the opportunity to do so, the talks took a turn for the worse, when the discussion turned to fiscal matters. Lord Midleton, the moderate Southern Unionist, who was trying to find a solution that would be acceptable to all parties, came up with the idea of an All-Irish Parliament - with some provision put in place to safeguard Ulster - that would have autonomy in almost everything, though not Customs and Excise. This plan was opposed by the Ulster Unionists and most Nationalists, particularly Bishop O'Donnell, who wanted full fiscal powers.
        Last edited by KatieMorag; 22-01-2018, 02:05 PM.

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        • In spite of the objections to his plan, Midleton continued to promote it throughout December, meeting Lloyd George early in the month to try to get him on board. Redmond, who despite the objections of other nationalists on the Committee was keen to embrace Midleton's idea, wrote to the PM to ask for his support. When the Committee met on 18th December - a meeting Redmond was unable to attend due to bad weather conditions and his rapidly declining health - Midleton went a step further by adding excise to the powers of his proposed Irish parliament, meaning that only customs and defence would be controlled by the Imperial Parliament, with these coming under review by a joint British/Irish commission after the war. At this stage, there were indications that the Ulster Unionists might be sympathetic to an all-Ireland parliament, subject to the right safeguards, and it was in fiscal matters that they disagreed with Midleton's plan. Bishop O'Donnell also opposed it, refusing to compromise on fiscal autonomy. At the end of 1917, therefore, although things were looking more promising, no agreement had been reached.
          Last edited by KatieMorag; 22-01-2018, 05:41 PM.

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          • The Volunteers After 1916

            Just as Sinn Fein was busy restructuring and increasing its membership during 1917, the Volunteers spent much of this year rebuilding itself in the aftermath of the Rising. Much of this work was due to the efforts of Cathal Brugha, who had been so badly injured during Easter Week that he had managed to avoid imprisonment. Together with Rory O'Connor, he kept the organisation going across Ireland, at the same time communicating with fellow republicans imprisoned in England and Wales.
            Although there was already some overlap between Sinn Fein and the Volunteers, it wasn't until October 1917 that this association was put on a more formal footing. Immediately after the Ard Fheis of 25-26th October, the Volunteers held their own Convention at a GAA club in Dublin, where de Valera became President of the Volunteers. A National Executive was formed, consisting of elected representatives from all over Ireland. Cathal Brugha became Chairman of the Resident Executive, and other posts were taken by Michael Collins, Rory O'Connor, Diarmuid Lynch, Michael Staines and Sean McGarry.
            Last edited by KatieMorag; 25-01-2018, 12:07 AM.

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            • Came across this today, about the period 1916-1918:

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              • Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
                Just as Sinn Fein was busy restructuring and increasing its membership during 1917, the Volunteers spent much of this year rebuilding itself in the aftermath of the Rising. Much of this work was due to the efforts of Cathal Brugha, who had been so badly injured during Easter Week that he had managed to avoid imprisonment. Together with Rory O'Connor, the two men kept the organisation going across Ireland, at the same time communicating with fellow republicans imprisoned in England and Wales.
                Although there was already some overlap between Sinn Fein and the Volunteers, it wasn't until October 1917 that this association was put on a more formal footing. Immediately after the Ard Fheis of 25-26th October, the Volunteers held their own Convention at a GAA club in Dublin, where de Valera became President of the Volunteers. A National Executive was formed, consisting of elected representatives from all over Ireland. Cathal Brugha became Chairman of the Resident Executive, and other posts were taken by Michael Collins, Rory O'Connor, Diarmuid Lynch, Michael Staines and Sean McGarry.
                Wasn't it around this time that the GAA ban on members of the RIC, DMP and British Army came into force ?
                Everything is self-evident.

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                • Originally posted by cogito View Post
                  Wasn't it around this time that the GAA ban on members of the RIC, DMP and British Army came into force ?
                  I don't know, haven't read about that........

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                  • Perhaps you could investigate Cogs.......as a special assignment.........

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                    • It was part of the policy of isolating the security forces from the community - and it extended eventually to the wives and children. Most RIC were catholic Irishmen - and they and their families paid a heavy price, especially in rural towns and villages.

                      I'm fairly sure the boycott kicked in around 1917/18... will come back to the thread with more on it.
                      Everything is self-evident.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cogito View Post
                        It was part of the policy of isolating the security forces from the community - and it extended eventually to the wives and children. Most RIC were catholic Irishmen - and they and their families paid a heavy price, especially in rural towns and villages.

                        I'm fairly sure the boycott kicked in around 1917/18... will come back to the thread with more on it.
                        great........

                        Comment


                        • Going a bit off-topic here, but it's related to the RIC.
                          My ex's g grandad on his mum's side was an RIC man in Naas, Co. Kildare. He died in 1917, I think, though he may well have retired by then. My mother-in-law told me that her mum was really hostile to them learning the Irish language when they were at school in Dublin, and she thought it was something to do with him being in the RIC......that kind of makes sense to me now reading about the hostility towards them and their families.
                          Last edited by KatieMorag; 26-01-2018, 11:11 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
                            Going a bit off-topic here, but it's related to the RIC.
                            My ex's g g grandad on his mum's side was an RIC man in Naas, Co. Kildare. He died in 1917, I think, though he may well have retired by then. My mother-in-law told me that her mum was really hostile to them learning the Irish language when they were at school in Dublin, and she thought it was something to do with him being in the RIC......that kind of makes sense to me now reading about the hostility towards them and their families.
                            Interesting story... a significant proportion of RIC would have been sympathetic enough towards the constitutional nationalism of Parnell or Redmond.
                            Everything is self-evident.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by cogito View Post
                              Wasn't it around this time that the GAA ban on members of the RIC, DMP and British Army came into force ?
                              Originally posted by KatieMorag View Post
                              I don't know, haven't read about that........
                              Originally posted by cogito View Post
                              It was part of the policy of isolating the security forces from the community - and it extended eventually to the wives and children. Most RIC were catholic Irishmen - and they and their families paid a heavy price, especially in rural towns and villages.

                              I'm fairly sure the boycott kicked in around 1917/18... will come back to the thread with more on it.
                              The GAA ban on members of the British security forces (Rule 21) actually came in during 1897.. and lasted until 2001 !!

                              More here...

                              Everything is self-evident.

                              Comment


                              • I suppose you can see their reasoning........the ban on watching "foreign" games just seems petty, though........

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