Michael Collins

[quinner]

I haven't read the word ''frustration'' on this thread........


many would have been frustrated.....they didn't get what they had hoped to get......

Mick, I believe was just as frustrated as many others.....but, he was a realist and knew that they would never in the foreseeable future get any more......

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

I haven't read the word ''frustration'' on this thread........many would have been frustrated.....they didn't get what they had hoped to get......Mick, I believe was just as frustrated as many others.....but, he was a realist and knew that they would never in the foreseeable future get any more......

Thats right.

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

The Dáil carried out its own series of intense debates before the Treaty was approved by the narrow margin of only seven votes. Collins's speeches in the Dáil have been described as articulate and poised, reflecting a remarkable sense of strength in such a trying time. DeValera had, essentially, what amounted to a breakdown because of the pressure he was under. He led his supporters out of the Dáil in protest of the results. It was also during these disputes in the Dáil that Cathal Brugha made his comments about Collins seeking notoriety and making himself out to be a romantic figure.

"In formally proposing the adoption of the Anglo-Irish Treaty on 19 December 1921 Arthur Griffith referred to Michael Collins as 'the man who won the war,' much to the annoyance of the Defence Minister Cathal Brugha, who questioned whether Collins 'had ever fired a shot at any enemy of Ireland.' Amid cries of 'Shame' and 'Get on with the Treaty,' Brugha complained that Collins had originated the story that there was a price on his head, and had personally sought the press publicity which built him into 'a romantic figure' and 'a mystical character' that he was not. Most of those present sat through the tirade in stunned silence, because there was no real stature to his wrath, just spite" (T. Ryle Dwyer).

"Suddenly, the mighty Cuchullain, hero of the Rising (Brugha), was seen for what he really was, a petty-minded, spiteful nonentity, insanely jealous of the one man who had kept the struggle going during the dark days of the Black and Tans" (James MacKay).

"Arthur Griffith was one of the last to speak, impelled to do so because of an earlier fatuous remark by Brugha who had (on 3 January) urged him to repudiate the Treaty which he had signed. … Griffith’s response to this ludicrous suggestion was to be one of the best speeches he ever delivered: ‘He was the man whose matchless energy, whose indomitable will, carried Ireland through the terrible crisis; and though I have not now, and never had, an ambition about either political affairs or history, if my name is to go down in history I want it to be associated with the name of Michael Collins’" (James MacKay).

(From Sara's Michael Collins excellent site)
http://sarasmichaelcollinssite.com/i...oses_its_giant

[fitzy]

Michael Collins had a girlfriend called Dilly Dicker . Dilly became his spy on the mail boats that sailed from Dublin to England . she hid in a mail basket to get on board ship . Dilly climbed out dressed asa postal worker and pinched the letters going from Dublin to London .she would stuff the letters into her underwear and hand them over to the I.R.A at the docks . on the return journey she did the same with secret letters from London to Dublin. the I.R.A knew British plans before the British army in Dublin did .

a poem about her .

An I.R.A spy ,Dilly Dicker
Was a clever and brave little tricker.
She pinched secret mail
When the mail boat set sail ,
And got off with it stuffed in her knickers!

[Maelduin]

I'd have to stand up for Cathal Brugha here - I think his remark wasn't a matter of raging jealousy at all, more a matter of trying to bring a little realism into the hagiography of Michael Collins.

[tommie]

Michael Collins had a girlfriend called Dilly Dicker . Dilly became his spy on the mail boats that sailed from Dublin to England . she hid in a mail basket to get on board ship . Dilly climbed out dressed asa postal worker and pinched the letters going from Dublin to London .she would stuff the letters into her underwear and hand them over to the I.R.A at the docks . on the return journey she did the same with secret letters from London to Dublin. the I.R.A knew British plans before the British army in Dublin did .

a poem about her .

An I.R.A spy ,Dilly Dicker
Was a clever and brave little tricker.
She pinched secret mail
When the mail boat set sail ,
And got off with it stuffed in her knickers!

Haha good one

My Da was a message runner for IRA

[fitzy]

thanks tommie , maybe thats where you got the urge to keep on the go ,lol

[tommie]

thanks tommie , maybe thats where you got the urge to keep on the go ,lol

Me,,,,,never left me shadow behind

[DAMNTHEWEATHER]

I'd have to stand up for Cathal Brugha here - I think his remark wasn't a matter of raging jealousy at all, more a matter of trying to bring a little realism into the hagiography of Michael Collins.

And what of the realism of de Valera and the other wimps who sat and watched with their mouths open as the younger more dynamic imaginative and charismatic Collins took charge of securing the freedom the country had craved for centuries ?.

No Maelduin.....Burgess's remark was all to do with jealousy....although Burgess would prove his worth as a brave slugger at the SDU.....he was no mental match for Collins, and he knew it.....and that had a lot to do with why Collins was helped to bypass Burgess in his role as M of D.....He was a de Valera 'lets take them head on' type of character....far too gung ho....not stupid enough to be completely sidelined and not clever enough to be part of the winning methods of sophisticated subversion utilized by the master Michael Collins to undermine his enemy and bring them to the negotiating table.

Gung Ho and Burgess ?....well what exactly was the point of his kamikaze style, Padraig Pearse-like blood sacrifice outside the Hammam Hotel, with the 'enemy' all but begging him not to force them to shoot him on that fatal day....what was that all about.....what was going on in his life that might have caused him to have a death wish....and why ?....because the people had voted for some peace in their lives ?.....surely a mentality such as Burgess' on that day....could not be relied on to give a level headed and honest assessment of the much younger man who left him in the halfpenny place......, left him way back in '16 with the 'wrap the green flag round me' brigade of idealists, poets and dreamers who's game was up before it started.

Finally, may I say that if any of the personalities of the period had a hagiography problem.....a betting man would be on a winner were he to back the narcissistic baggage laden de Valera.

QUOTE;
The extreme narcissist is frozen in childhood. He became emotionally stuck at the time of his major trauma of separation/attachment.

In my work with extreme narcissist patients I have found that their emotional age and maturity corresponds to the age they experienced their major trauma. This trauma was devastating to the point it almost killed that person emotionally. The pain never was totally gone and the bleeding was continuous. In order to survive, this child had to construct a protective barrier that insulates him/her from the external world of people. He generalized that all people are harmful and cannot be trusted.

The protective insulation barrier he constructed is called a false persona. He created a false identity. This identity is not the true person inside. The many types of false personas or identities that an extreme narcissist creates can vary. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archive...-a-narcissist/

Photo shows 'poor' Eamon de Valera who was known as Eddie Coll during his childhood in Bruree, Co Limerick after he was abandoned there by his mother Catherine Coll seen here in a rare pic taken 01 Apr 1927.

Eamon's mother would more than once reject his pleas to join her new family in the US after she finally settled down with her first ever husband.....but his pleading was met only with deaf ears.....Eamon must have been devastated by this rejection for the rest of. his life.

[Seeker]

I'd have to stand up for Cathal Brugha here - I think his remark wasn't a matter of raging jealousy at all, more a matter of trying to bring a little realism into the hagiography of Michael Collins.

Michael Collins on Cathal Brugha's demise:

“Many would not have forgiven - had they been in my place - Cathal Brugha's attack on me on January 7th. Yet I would forgive him anything Because of his sincerity I would forgive him anything.

"At worst he was a fanatic - though in what has been a noble cause. At best I number him among the very few who have given their all that this country - now torn by civil war - should have its freedom.

"When many of us are forgotten, Cathal Brugha will be remembered.”

Letter from Kitty Kiernan to Michael Collins 15 July 1922 (quoting what she was told Brugha had said of MC shortly before)

“...he only said those things about you in the Dail to save the Republic etc., that you were one of the best men, full of eneergy, and that he'd like to see th man who could beat you in votes and several other things ... it was a great surprise to them all ... “

There was a good deal of friction between Brugha & Collins during the War of Independence, Brugha being official "Minister of War" (or Defense or whatever they were calling it,) & Collins, although officially Minister of Finance & Director of Intelligence, actually ended up running the war on the ground. And MC was supposed to be doing everything under Brugha's supervision / approval. But I suspect maybe MC sometimes would think it more blessed to ask forgiveness than to ask permission, etc. Like Solohedbeg, they didn't exactly get permission to do that in advance, but after it was done it was decided they were right. And there were a deal of arguments between the two of them on things like that.

I think in the end they were still a band of brothers at heart, they were really on the same team. But some elements wanted to break up the Irish unity that beat the British, and they knew about the friction between them & played on it. Brugha did have an ego, too. No one could do what he did or what MC did without a good strong one. But I think people got next to him and played on that to separate them.

In the end I think it was the same elements who wanted to get rid of Collins and to get rid of men like Brugha.

[Seeker]

a poem about her .

An I.R.A spy ,Dilly Dicker
Was a clever and brave little tricker.
She pinched secret mail
When the mail boat set sail ,
And got off with it stuffed in her knickers!

Well done. Cute.

[cogito]

...I think in the end they were still a band of brothers at heart, they were really on the same team. But some elements wanted to break up the Irish unity that beat the British, and they knew about the friction between them & played on it. Brugha did have an ego, too. No one could do what he did or what MC did without a good strong one. But I think people got next to him and played on that to separate them.

In the end I think it was the same elements who wanted to get rid of Collins and to get rid of men like Brugha.

Maybe I misunderstand you... are you suggesting Cathal Brugha was the victim of a plot ?? Would you not agree that he died as a result of what would be termed today as 'suicide by cop' ??

[Seeker]

Maybe I misunderstand you... are you suggesting Cathal Brugha was the victim of a plot ?? Would you not agree that he died as a result of what would be termed today as 'suicide by cop' ??

"Was the Civil War itself on some level, a kind of assassination campaign itself? Was that hell paved by the best intentions of many of the brightest and most dedicated in Ireland, in truth a trap set by the British establishment (who emerged from the wreckage its sole benificiaries)? If so, it did exactly what it was intended to do, by its true planners."

Quote from a recent book mentioned on this thread. I won't say which one, because I've mentioned it often enough, and I don't want to be a redundant bore.

I also do not buy the whole "suicide by police" rubbish. Yeah, sure. You see the poor fellow actually wanted us to... And if you'll believe that you'll believe anything.

[cogito]

"Was the Civil War itself on some level, a kind of assassination campaign itself? Was that hell paved by the best intentions of many of the brightest and most dedicated in Ireland, in truth a trap set by the British establishment (who emerged from the wreckage its sole benificiaries)? If so, it did exactly what it was intended to do, by its true planners."

Quote from a recent book mentioned on this thread. I won't say which one, because I've mentioned it often enough, and I don't want to be a redundant bore.

Your quote from the book is vague, speculative and rhetorical - what historical evidence do you or the author offer for the dubious claim that the Irish Civil War was 'a trap set by the British establishment' ?? If there were 'sole benificiaries' from the conflict among southern nationalists - would that not be the Ulster unionist establishment ?? And if we accept that the split in the IRA diverted attention away from the North and benefited the security of that state, it would still be flawed logic and false history to suggest that the unionists or the British successfully conspired to ferment civil war in the south. The conflict resulted from differences among Irish nationalists - and it could have been avoided.

I also do not buy the whole "suicide by police" rubbish. Yeah, sure. You see the poor fellow actually wanted us to... And if you'll believe that you'll believe anything.

I'm familiar with the popular and widely circulated accounts of Brugha's demise following wounds he received during his exit from the Hammam Hotel - I'm not aware of any cover ups or plots relating to his death - or of any Republican allegations on those accounts. That doesn't mean I 'believe anything'. It does mean I tend to stick with the old maxim that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



Hammam Hotel - July 1922.

Hammam_Hotel.preview.jpg

[Seeker]

It's always fascinating how hot & bothered some people get at the mere suggestion of a new way of looking at this history. At the mere posing of a question.

The British unquestionably played a role in getting the Civil War started. They were certainly among its only beneficiaries. There's no extraordinary claim in that. It's in the record.