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  • This was MC's big party piece, which he recited word for word at every opportunity....well ....his own offering allegedly.

    The Fighting Race
    By Joseph I. C. Clarke


    “READ out the names!” and Burke sat back,
    And Kelly drooped his head.
    While Shea—they call him Scholar Jack—
    Went down the list of the dead.
    Officers, seamen, gunners, marines,
    The crews of the gig and yawl,
    The bearded man and the lad in his teens,
    Carpenters, coal passers—all.
    Then, knocking the ashes from out his pipe,
    Said Burke in an offhand way:
    “We ’re all in that dead man’s list, by Cripe!
    Kelly and Burke and Shea.”
    “Well, here ’s to the Maine, and I ’m sorry for Spain,”
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.

    “Wherever there ’s Kellys there ’s trouble,” said Burke.
    “Wherever fighting’s the game,
    Or a spice of danger in grown man’s work,”
    Said Kelly, “you ’ll find my name.”
    “And do we fall short,” said Burke, getting mad,
    “When it ’s touch and go for life?”
    Said Shea, “It ’s thirty-odd years, bedad,
    Since I charged to drum and fife
    Up Marye’s Heights, and my old canteen
    Stopped a rebel ball on its way.
    There were blossoms of blood on our sprigs of green—
    Kelly and Burke and Shea—
    And the dead did n’t brag.” “Well, here ’s to the flag!”
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.

    “I wish ’t was in Ireland, for there ’s the place,”
    Said Burke, “that we’d die by right,
    In the cradle of our soldier race,
    After one good stand-up fight.
    My grandfather fell on Vinegar Hill,
    And fighting was not his trade;
    But his rusty pike ’s in the cabin still,
    With Hessian blood on the blade.”
    “Aye, aye,” said Kelly, “the pikes were great
    When the word was ‘clear the way!’
    We were thick on the roll in ninety-eight—
    Kelly and Burke and Shea.”
    “Well, here ’s to the pike and the sword and the like!”
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.

    And Shea, the scholar, with rising joy,
    Said, “We were at Ramillies;
    We left our bones at Fontenoy
    And up in the Pyrenees;
    Before Dunkirk, on Landen’s plain,
    Cremona, Lille, and Ghent,
    We ’re all over Austria, France, and Spain,
    Wherever they pitched a tent.
    We ’ve died for England from Waterloo
    To Egypt and Dargai;
    And still there ’s enough for a corps or crew,
    Kelly and Burke and Shea.”
    “Well, here is to good honest fighting blood!”
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.

    “Oh, the fighting races don’t die out,
    If they seldom die in bed,
    For love is first in their hearts, no doubt,”
    Said Burke; then Kelly said:
    “When Michael, the Irish Archangel, stands,
    The angel with the sword,
    And the battle-dead from a hundred lands
    Are ranged in one big horde,
    Our line, that for Gabriel’s trumpet waits,
    Will stretch three deep that day,
    From Jehoshaphat to the Golden Gates—
    Kelly and Burke and Shea.”
    “Well, here ’s thank God for the race and the sod!”
    Said Kelly and Burke and Shea.
    1898.
    We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

    Comment


    • Frongoch Prison Camp where Michael Collins and 1862 other Irish Prisoners were kept until December 1916 when it was closed and prisoners released.

      Situated two miles to the west of Bala in Gwynedd, the Frongoch Distillery had been founded by R Lloyd Price in 1897, allegedly because of the purity of the water from the nearby river. However, by 1910 the enterprise had gone bankrupt and when war was declared against Germany in 1914 the old buildings were taken over as a prisoner of war camp. Several German prisoners died there and were buried in the village churchyard; their bodies were later disinterred and moved to other sites.
      Attached Files
      We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

      Comment


      • A long time ago I found the little verse that MC wrote while he was at Frongoch Prison Camp in 1916......I thought it a small treasure, and so well done....it says;

        Executed 1916

        We'll shrine their sacred memories
        Bright to guide us on

        Till hope has reached it's haven
        Till gloom and grief have gone

        The freeman's hand may fashion
        The name of fame on high

        Yall who trod that pathway
        And showed the way to die

        just discovered tonight that Mick half inched it from a very clever chap named William Rooney, who had written very similar, but the original version in a much longer piece in praise of brave Father Conroy from Addergool in Mayo...who was hung from a tree for helping the French troops led by General Humber after they landed to help the Irish whop the Brits in 1798.

        Rooney had won a competition with his original with the Weekly Freeman in 1898 for the centenary celebrations.

        Collins nicked the very last verse and scribbled down his version dedicated to Pearse and the boys................. Ye live and learn.
        Attached Files
        We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DAMNTHEWEATHER View Post
          ... the Matron....who Feehan said was Gordon....when it was double checked by Ryan to have been Forbes....so Feehan is unreliable for info.
          As requested, here's your post: where you say that, since Ryan contradicts Feehan, that proves he's "unreliable."

          It proves no such thing. It proves that the two most-quoted authorities on the subject of Collins' death contradict each other on important points.

          Like other questions & testimony & statements about it, as Sigerson says, "both cannot be true."

          No, Coogan could not have omitted Ryan because of unavailability. Her book came out in the 1970s, twenty years before his 1991 biography of Collins. He refers to Feehan quite a bit & it can only mean he found Feehan more reliable.

          I don't "admit" that Ryan is correct about Dr Cagney. I admitted I was mistaken in saying she interviewed him. I could give you my thoughts on the wound issue, but I just don't like to dwell on talking about his injuries.

          The fact is both Ryan and Feehan quote a number of witnesses, including medical people from the hospital. One says there was only one wound, and the other says that there were at least two, possibly three on the head & maybe others on the body.

          That means there's a dispute about that. There is no autopsy report, no postmortem, so no one can claim to be sure. That's the only point I'm trying to make on that.

          You might notice that Coogan also pretty much side-steps this question in his chapter. He makes very minimal reference to the wounds, & doesn't go into the controversy at all. Probably because there just isn't any certainty about it.

          Pardon my mistake about Ryan's footnote 22. I don't have the book in front of me, just photocopies, & I guess I mistook the footnote of the same number from another chapter.
          Last edited by Seeker; 19-03-2014, 07:38 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Seeker View Post
            As requested, here's your post: where you say that, since Ryan contradicts Feehan, that proves he's "unreliable."
            I glad to see you read the exchanges I have with other posters....but yet again your selective posting simply means you will have to go back and read all of what I said to Albert, and in context, to get the full picture lol. Feehan was / is "unreliable" in this instance and in many other instances, which I keep telling you about....and which you keep sidestepping.

            It proves no such thing.
            Like it or lump it....it proves Mr Feehan....was and still is today wrong and I will show you how you are going to prove it to yourself......and after you have searched for Feehan's evidence by reference....and can't find any....I'll tell you.... yet again....why you can't find any.

            It proves that the two most-quoted authorities on the subject of Collins' death contradict each other on important points.
            No....that's nonsense....they do not simply contradict each other....as I said before, Ryan actually interviewed 5 of the doctors who attended to Collins body...Feehan interviewed NONE. You tell me who if any of the doctors he interviewed ?.

            Like other questions & testimony & statements about it, as Sigerson says, "both cannot be true."
            Sigerson..., Sigerson...., Sigerson...come lately.......That's why I wouldn't touch Sigerson's book with a barge pole.....because the essence of it is based on that sort of gobbledegook conspiracy logic. There is absolutely no doubt about who Ryan interviewed ....Ryan 5 plus a rep of the 6th (Dr Cagney).....Feehan ?...none. Now tell me what cannot be true.

            No, Coogan could not have omitted Ryan because of unavailability. Her book came out in the 1970s, twenty years before his 1991 biography of Collins.
            LOL....you don't half take the biscuit....Twenty years my eye....go back and check it out one more time....no wait, chances are we'll never hear of it again.....Let me save you the bother..............
            Meda Ryan "The Day Michael Collins was Shot"
            Product Details
            Paperback: 213 pages
            Publisher: Poolbeg Press Ltd Ireland (1989)
            Language: English
            ISBN-10: 185371738X
            ISBN-13: 978-1853717383

            T P Coogans book was first published in the middle of 1991...which tells me they were researching and writing their books around at the same time....making Coogan's quotes from Feehan more likely......unaware that Ryan was writing hers.....by which time Mr Coogan's was most likely done and dusted...with final preps in the pipeline...so your 20 years 'fact' is not a fact after all...is it ?.

            He refers to Feehan quite a bit & it can only mean he found Feehan more reliable.
            Absolute poppycock !

            I don't "admit" that Ryan is correct about Dr Cagney. I admitted I was mistaken in saying she interviewed him. I could give you my thoughts on the wound issue, but I just don't like to dwell on talking about his injuries.
            She is / was right about Dr Cagney...FEEHAN said she interviewed Dr Cagney.....when she did not.....He said he interviewed Cagney too...but even if he did....what could Cagney tel him...when he wasn't even there !

            Old Post from DTW;
            Feehan also states he read all previous biographies on the subject, and referes to his contacts and helpers as "these kaleidoscopic contacts" yet fails to tell us exactly who they were, apart from Friel and Cormac Mac Carthaigh.

            At the least Ryan can substantiate the fact that she interviewed 5 of the doctors involved with Collins body in Shanakiel, and Feehan none.


            Whereas Feehan claims (as you do) Collins was examined by Dr Patrick Cagney....though gives no reference to any proof or interview......Ryan's more thorough research established without doubt not least in 1976, that Dr Cagney was in the Mercy Hospital at the time and did not examine the body.

            Here's what was said way back in post 672, after you tried to convince me you were right;

            Quote Seeker:
            I stand corrected on Dr Cagney. His statement was provided by "his representative" who was not named.

            Reply DTW;
            Thank you...yes, the information that Dr Cagney at no time examined the body was given personally to Meda Ryan in interview by Dr Cagney's representative on 16 January 1976, as Dr Cagney was by then deceased.

            I ask....where did Feehan get his information....When we know he neither interviewed Dr Cagney or any of the other doctors involved.....was that hearsay as well, I wonder.


            The fact is both Ryan and Feehan quote a number of witnesses, including medical people from the hospital.
            You don't only confuse yourself, yer trying it with me too lol......For the umpteenth time, can you please tell me....exactly who / what medical people did Feehan interview ? I cannot find one reference, not one. Over to you.

            One says there was only one wound, and the other says that there were at least two, possibly three on the head & maybe others on the body.
            More nonsense....who are these mysterious people....I suggest you are relying as Freehan did....on the word of Friel and him alone. Over to you.

            That means there's a dispute about that.
            Red Herring ! Give me names....dates....places of Feehan's interviewees ....like I gave you Ryans, chapter and verse. Over to you.

            There is no autopsy report, no postmortem, so no one can claim to be sure. That's the only point I'm trying to make on that.
            LOL...You made the same point way back.....and I told you before....if 5 of the doctors who examined the body all say there was one wound....that looks like pretty good substantial evidence to me....Don't you believe them ?. Or are you happy sticking with Sigerson's conspiracy theory ....again.

            You might notice that Coogan also pretty much side-steps this question in his chapter. He makes very minimal reference to the wounds, & doesn't go into the controversy at all.
            Red Herring...Proves nothing whatsoever....Try; maybe at 510 pages....his book was full.

            Probably because there just isn't any certainty about it.
            ROFL....5 doctors worth at the last count....Over to you.

            Pardon my mistake about Ryan's footnote 22. I don't have the book in front of me, just photocopies, & I guess I mistook the footnote of the same number from another chapter.
            We all make mistakes.
            We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

            Comment


            • Interesting bit here......
              The inscription on the back of the coin in old Irish says: "Michael Collins; 22. 8. '22; From his sister to Diarmuid Murphy; in beloved memory of him; The one piece of money he had when he was killed."


              Given how anti English..., full of the Gaelic, and all things Irish he was.....Never could figured out why de Valera allowed English money to continue circulating in Ireland long after he took over.
              Attached Files
              We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DAMNTHEWEATHER View Post
                Interesting bit here......
                The inscription on the back of the coin in old Irish says: "Michael Collins; 22. 8. '22; From his sister to Diarmuid Murphy; in beloved memory of him; The one piece of money he had when he was killed."


                Given how anti English..., full of the Gaelic, and all things Irish he was.....Never could figured out why de Valera allowed English money to continue circulating in Ireland long after he took over.

                maybe he had a lot of it under his mattress.......
                Here Rex!!!...Here Rex!!!.....Wuff!!!....... Wuff!!!

                Comment


                • Hi, What are the best books to buy on Collins?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by quinner View Post
                    maybe he had a lot of it under his mattress.......
                    Yer probably dead on there Joe....certainly he never went without after 1932.....He even had a house skivvy running around him in 1911....Dubliner Mary Coffey ...25 year old...cannot read.
                    We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lily View Post
                      Hi, What are the best books to buy on Collins?
                      Hello and welcome here Lily.....There's a fair wide choice of books about Michael Collins...and you might get varied opinions, that said, I would highly recommend Tim Pat Coogan's Biog...simply called Michael Collins.
                      As you are in Miami (nice and warm I hope) you can look inside and or buy it here http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...Tim+Pat+Coogan

                      Next up and not to be missed is Michael Collins Own Story by Hayden Talbot here http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...lins+own+story

                      This book caused a stir, and still does to some extent, but just ignore the doubters and read away....it happened like he says.

                      Next....The Path to Freedom (Articles and Speeches by Michael Collins) gets you inside his head....well worth a read.

                      Then (for now anyway) Michael Collins 'In His Own Words' edited by Francis Costello.

                      After that there's a whole host I could recommend, and if ye were around the corner I'd let ye borrow them lol. Happy reading..................
                      We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                      Comment


                      • This is the best one so far imo;

                        The Béal na mBlath Commemoration Committee requested that this gesture be made by the state as they prepare to commemorate the 90th anniversary of Michael Collins death at Béal na mBláth August 2012”

                        The Minister for Finance requested the Central Bank to arrange for the issue of a special coin in 2012 to mark the 90th anniversary of the death of Michael Collins.
                        Attached Files
                        We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lily View Post
                          Hi, What are the best books to buy on Collins?
                          Hi lily, and welcome again.

                          I second all the books mentioned by Damn the Weather,
                          especially "The Path to Freedom" and
                          "Michael Collins In HIs Own Words"

                          and I add a couple more recommendations:

                          "Michael Collins & the Making of the Irish State" by D Keogh & G Doherty

                          "The Shooting of Michael Collins: Murder or Accident?" by John M Feehan

                          "The Assassination of Michael Collins: What Happened at Béal na mBláth?" by S M Sigerson

                          "The Lost Leader" by Margaret Forrester

                          Another suggestion for anyone curious about Collins:

                          Always listen to all conflicting viewpoints about him.
                          There's a lot of controversy about his life and times. Which goes on to this day.

                          People in Ireland still get quite hot & bothered about it; for very good reasons. Not to mention "The Troubles" of the North are a legacy from that period, related to what happened to Collins; and also still a big controversy, not settled yet. So there are really big, serious issues concerned.

                          So what I mean is, don't let anyone tell you, "Take it from me, this is the way it was and don't listen to anyone else."

                          No one can really truthfully say that. And you'll find the best writers on the subject will never try to hand you that line.

                          Or, as pointed out in the new book by Sigerson "Only those who were not there are sure what happened."

                          Comment


                          • Good to see your green light on Seeker ! Forgot to mention....Lily a gonner now....Ex Member.
                            We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DAMNTHEWEATHER View Post
                              ...that's nonsense.......There is absolutely no doubt .... Absolute poppycock ! ...More nonsense... Red Herring ! ... Red Herring...Proves nothing whatsoever....
                              Yes well, we're both mistaken about Ryan's publication date. If it came out in 1989 (I thought it was 79,) Coogan could not possibly have been "unaware" of it before his came out in 1991. Especially as he has not been "unaware" of anything published on the subject ever.

                              Sorry, from what I've found in Ryan's book, I don't rely on anything just because she says so; including her claims about who she interviewed or what they said. I've found that she's biased & unreliable. I still think it's important to know what she said; even if I think she's wrong about it. It's important to know what biased, unreliable people say.

                              Coogan makes several references to Feehan, in his chapter on Collins death. It's right there in black & white for anyone to read. But you post & post saying that didn't happen.

                              You've clearly stated that you're biased in favour of Ryan. You insult Feehan as a person. You refuse to read a new book that's well-regarded by people who know more about Collins, yes even more than you (although that's not easy.)

                              This is the only place I've ever heard anyone extol the head bodyguard Dalton as some kind of grand fellow, "another greatest Irishman," who no one should dare to breathe a word against. I'd call that bias, too.

                              Maybe if you post more and more pages telling everyone not to believe or not to read some books, and just overwhelm us with more volume of words than anyone else, that will make it seem true. But it's not true.

                              Sorry if I haven't responded in detail to everything you've said. But in view of so many biased and unreasonable statements, I just can't take your position as seriously as I did when our conversation began.

                              You have a lot of great research, and the conversation is still helpful & educational for me. But you also ignore questions you can't answer. Any proven point you don't want to hear is "nonsense ... poppycock...etc."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Seeker View Post
                                Yes well, we're both mistaken about Ryan's publication date. If it came out in 1989 (I thought it was 79,) Coogan could not possibly have been "unaware" of it before his came out in 1991. Especially as he has not been "unaware" of anything published on the subject ever.

                                Sorry, from what I've found in Ryan's book, I don't rely on anything just because she says so; including her claims about who she interviewed or what they said. I've found that she's biased & unreliable. I still think it's important to know what she said; even if I think she's wrong about it. It's important to know what biased, unreliable people say.

                                Coogan makes several references to Feehan, in his chapter on Collins death. It's right there in black & white for anyone to read. But you post & post saying that didn't happen.

                                You've clearly stated that you're biased in favour of Ryan. You insult Feehan as a person. You refuse to read a new book that's well-regarded by people who know more about Collins, yes even more than you (although that's not easy.)

                                This is the only place I've ever heard anyone extol the head bodyguard Dalton as some kind of grand fellow, "another greatest Irishman," who no one should dare to breathe a word against. I'd call that bias, too.

                                Maybe if you post more and more pages telling everyone not to believe or not to read some books, and just overwhelm us with more volume of words than anyone else, that will make it seem true. But it's not true.

                                Sorry if I haven't responded in detail to everything you've said. But in view of so many biased and unreasonable statements, I just can't take your position as seriously as I did when our conversation began.

                                You have a lot of great research, and the conversation is still helpful & educational for me. But you also ignore questions you can't answer. Any proven point you don't want to hear is "nonsense ... poppycock...etc."
                                Well just pick one point ...any one point instead of a hit and run job...lol....and I'll chew it over with you....Just remember - without sounding smart - so far you have been the one to think twice here about what you believed to be sure things....and I'm the one who pointed it out....Now about that ONE point like you say "so many biased and unreasonable statements" (grossly inaccurate but I'll not crib) and let's talk about it live....deal....or have you vamoosed already ?
                                We'll sail be the tide....aarghhhh !!

                                Comment

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